Monday, September 3, 2018

Joy's Greatest Fear

"Before I went into labor, having a C-section was my greatest fear."
-Joy (Duggar) Forsyth

We hope that our American and Canadian readers are enjoying a relaxing Labor Day weekend. Tonight on Counting On, Joy's greatest fear comes to life when she is transferred to the hospital after 19 hours of labor and ends up having a C-section. The Duggar family also celebrates a birthday.

The hour-long episode starts at 9pm ET/8pm CT on TLC, but if you have TV service, you can log in with your provider and watch the episode early on the network's website. Below is a preview.


Photo/video courtesy TLC

67 comments:

  1. I don't understand why it took 19 hours before someone checked the position of the baby? I am an Aussie and when entering the hospital to give birth the first thing they do is check the position of the baby. In the final 4 weeks at each weekly check up that is what they are also doing. There is no 19 hour of labour before a baby's position is worked out. The Duggar girls need to choose a better birthing service.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, who was attending her at the house?

      Back in the days of dinosaurs, when I gave birth, the hospital would quickly x-ray you when you went into labor so they could be 100% sure of the position they'd be dealing with.

      Delete
    2. Unfortunately she didn't utilize Dr. appointments. She had a midwife? Perhaps it was Jill although I don't want to tar her skills if it wasn't. She followed her mothers style and it doesn't always work. Jinger and Lendea sought professionals

      Delete
    3. These ladies do like to play fast and loose with their deliveries.

      Delete
    4. Sometimes baby will re-position during labor, but Joy’s baby was large and being a first baby her pelvis had to flex more than it knew it could. 19 hours really does seem like a long time to discover a breech. Since they have never given these details or discussed why it took so long we are left to wonder and imaginations run wild.

      Delete
    5. I've had five children. And all hospital births. I live in the United States, and the hospital and doctor does exactly what you say at the doctor visits and at the hospital. So, maybe she didn't get adaquate care. I know anything can happen though.

      Delete
    6. Babies sometimes can turn breech during labor, so it might have been in the right position at first and turned. Not as likely typically for a first-time mom, but it could have happened like that, I would give the benefit of the doubt there. What concerns me more is the fact that, given the baby's measurements, she should never have even attempted a home birth. While measurements aren't always exact, a properly trained medical professional would have advised strongly against trying to home birth a baby that big (well over 10lbs!), especially a first-time mom. Things could have gone very wrong very quickly, as they did for Jessa's first birth. Thank God they made the right decision quickly enough to avert disaster.

      Delete
    7. Some babies turn while in labor. I had this happen, except in reverse, my baby was breech and thankfully turned on its own during labor. My baby was almost 10 lbs too!!

      Delete
    8. I agree. I’m Australian and a nurse. I know that babies can turn randomly but from at that birth weight and at 19hrs it makes me wonder what care they have or wether or not they have a nurse midwife or lay midwife. Because a midwife would never go 19 hrs without checking the babies position at least once or more! Just my opnion as nurse!

      Delete
    9. As a medical professional it is clear to me that none of the Duggars except Anna & Jinger, have used a real midwife. Lay midwife was used for Joy and she obviously didn’t do enough checks! Same with Jill labouring for 70 hours and then going to hospital which could of killed her and her baby. Homebirth is great but the duggars need to get better pre natal care in the future.

      Delete
    10. Right?! And with a baby that big it’s not like he could turn last minute either. He had to of been in that position for a while. If they couldn’t clearly feel the head down they should have done an ultrasound at one of the later appointments to check. I feel badly for her that she had to go through all that labor unnecessarily with a major surgery on top of that. Not to mention that if they knew he was breach sooner there would have been some proactive natural things they could have done to try to get him he’s down before he had gotten too big and maybe avoided the c-section. I hope next time they will choose a better birth team.

      Delete
    11. I agree. They could have lost both Joy and the baby. Figuring out the position of the baby is a basic first step.

      Delete
  2. I feel so sorry for Joy having to labor for 19 hours and then realizing the baby was breech. Why wasn't this discovered much earlier to save her all that stress and labor?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I’m a nurse and I’m thinking the same thing. Yes babies can turn but at 19 hours? I’m thinking Joy wasn’t even checked for poisitioning at the start or before labour

      Delete
  3. Didn't we already see this???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes. But repeats are always good. Saves filming costs.

      Delete
    2. We saw a 20 min version. This is the one hr version which has more footage + interviews

      Delete
    3. I have not seen it yet.

      Delete
    4. We saw, the 15 minute birth special. However, this was an hour long episode, with included Gideon's birth, and plenty of new material, such as a joint birthday party for Tyler and Henry.

      Delete
  4. Pleeeease tell me that Austin did not wear a dirty ballcap into a hospital OR.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yep had the hat on with a scrub net over it, that would never be permitted at the hospital I work in, an infection control nightmare!

      Delete
    2. They really don't care what the expectant father wears. He's basically a bystander in the proceedings.

      Delete
    3. That was crazy. Hats are filthy. Dirty hands are always touching them and they're full of sweat and skin cells (yum, if you're a microbe). He shouldn't have a hat on inside, let alone in the OR!

      Delete
    4. Plus it was incredibly dorky and inappropriate

      Delete
    5. There are germs everywhere. You cannot avoid them. There is nothing wrong with wearing a hat "inside"

      Delete
    6. In the OR, yes it was inappropriate. I’m surprised it was allowed.

      Delete
    7. @3:23 Hospitals can't afford to take that type of cavalier attitude about germs. It would be a matter of life and death for some patients there, not to mention a good way to lose your accreditation or run your hospital into the ground.

      How would you like it if your surgeon came into the OR ungloved and unwashed, but told you that "germs are everywhere" so don't worry? You'd probably get off the table and leave! Joy was having a surgical procedure. Austin should never have worn that hat, or be allowed to have it on.

      Delete
  5. I am happy for Joy. If her greatest fear is a c-section, she must live a generally care-free life.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That was her biggest fear for the birth. Give her a break, she was a nineteen year old first time mom

      Delete
    2. Maybe she does live a care free life. It's called having peace and joy. And having any kind of surgery is dangerous no matter what your age is. I don't blame joy for being scared. It is a huge fear for most women

      Delete
    3. A c section is also my greatest fear. I know how she feels.

      Delete
    4. I had to have a C section or I and my son would have died. A C-section saved us. If that's her greatest fear....

      Delete
  6. I was also shocked to find that they didn't know her baby was breech. It's standard in any hospital to check the position of the baby. Even midwife's do that.

    ReplyDelete
  7. C-sections are a possibility for every delivery. Be thankful for a healthy baby and a safe delivery

    ReplyDelete
  8. Wish I could watch it streaming. 😒

    ReplyDelete
  9. I just can't figure out why they didn't know this BEFORE she labored for 19 hours?!!! My first baby was breech and I knew a month out. Where was her prenatal care?!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Babies can flip during labor, so either that’s what happened or she had an incompetent midwife, which wouldn’t shock me since she used a CPM instead of a CNM

      Delete
  10. Gideon was a ten pound baby, Joy should probably be glad she didn’t have him naturally😬😬

    ReplyDelete
  11. Time 6:40PM Tues 9/3/18
    Happy labor day to everyone & tomorrow is my 30th bday Is that Johanna? She looks just like Jessa. Joy looks like she is really in pain in the photo.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Of course she was in pain she was in labor

      Delete
    2. Happy Birth day!!! To you young lady have a blessed day!!πŸŽˆπŸŽŠπŸŽ‚πŸŽ‰πŸ’

      Delete
    3. Happy 30th Birthday! May all your dreams come true😊

      Delete
  12. I get wanting to have a home birth but for the lives of the mother and child, can these young women ever use a truly certified midwife!??

    There is no excuse for 19 hours of labor in the breech position. This risks the child’s life and could lead to complications that prohibit future children in the mother.






    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm not very informed about midwives. What is a "truly certified midwife?"

      Delete
    2. There are two very different types of midwife certifications Certified Professional Midwife (CPM) and Certified Nurse Midwife (CNM).

      Jill is a CPM which requires no schooling and can be obtained through apprenticeship and fulfilling licensure requirements. They are neither doctors nor nurses, cannot write prescriptions, and some states do not allow this license at all.

      CNMs are medical professionals who have completed a master's degree in nursing. They can write prescriptions and are overseen by physicians (MDs). In many states, they can also deliver in hospitals as well as at home.

      The Duggars seem to use CPMs, like Jill, rather than CNMs who have extensively more education and training. This probably accounts for many of the mistakes that have been made in their failed attempts at homebirths.

      I personally find it odd and objectionable that they go to medical professionals with proper education for things like straightening the kids' teeth but seemingly refuse prenatal, labor and delivery care from medical professionals until there is some sort of emergency.

      Delete
  13. Not a good idea for baby and mama to be under that much stress tor that long a time. Thank goodness they are both OK.

    ReplyDelete
  14. My heart goes out to Joy. :( I don't know why they didn't know sooner that he was breech, but it sounds like she made the right decision once they knew.

    If they had known before labor, she could have had an external cephalic version to try to turn him head-down and save them from a probable C-section. ECVs are successful for 33% of first-time mothers and 61% of people who have given birth before.

    https://evidencebasedbirth.com/what-is-the-evidence-for-using-an-external-cephalic-version-to-turn-a-breech-baby/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Whitney Bates, the oldest Bates son's (Zach) wife, was able to have a external cephalic version when she was in early labor with her daughter Kaci. Her doctor determined she was breech and, luckily, it was successful.

      Delete
    2. Oh cool! Thats's wonderful to hear. Thanks for the info.

      Delete
    3. An ECV is not completely without risk. My Ob-Gyn practice lost a baby doing that. Doctors cannot always "see" everything. The cord was wrapped around the baby's neck and not visible on the ultrasound. In manipulating the baby to turn it, it actually strangled the baby. Few doctors will tell an expectant mom about this potential complication. Many are simply confident in their ability to turn the baby. Not that I wanted a C-Section, but at least I knew my breech baby would not be strangled.

      Delete
  15. It was hard to watch Joy in labor knowing what was coming. I think Jinger had more focused care, care providers who hoped to prevent some complications by encouraging delivery slightly before her due date. It still troubles me that Joy’s midwife did not know the baby was breech until 19+ hours later.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is conflicting evidence about whether induction for suspected big babies can improve the health of mothers and babies.

      In a 2016 Cochrane review, researchers combined four studies in which 1,190 women with suspected big babies were randomly assigned (like flipping a coin) to either 1) induction between 37 and 40 weeks or 2) waiting for spontaneous labor.

      When researchers compared the induction group to the waiting group, they found a decrease in rates of shoulder dystocia in the induction group—about 41 cases per 1,000 births in the elective induction group, down from 68 cases per 1,000 in the waiting group. They also found a decrease in collarbone fractures (4 per 1,000 vs. 20 per 1,000).

      On the other hand, they found an increase in severe perineal tears in the induction group (26 per 1,000 in the induction group vs. 7 per 1,000 in the waiting group), as well as an increase in the treatment of jaundice (11% vs. 7%).

      There were no differences between groups in rates of Cesarean, instrumental delivery, NICU admissions, brachial plexus palsy, or low Apgar scores. There were zero deaths in either group.

      https://evidencebasedbirth.com/evidence-for-induction-or-c-section-for-big-baby/

      Delete
  16. Its good it all eneded well.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Considering they were 30 minutes from a hospital (as mentioned elsewhere) and the size of the baby, I think Joy and Austin were very fortunate that this birth came out OK. They took a huge risk with a home birth. I give Jinger a lot of credit for bucking the family trend and having a hospital birth. At least there you have a lot of immediate help by professionals if something goes south. These Duggar girls usually have large babies. Look at Jill being in labor for days - it's crazy, needless suffering.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm really not sure why there is this preference for home births among many Duggar daughters, since Michelle herself birthed many of her babies in the hospital. So this doesn't seem to be an issue of religious belief. Neither is the cost of a hospital birth. (Kelly Bates had her first 14 babies at home but that was when the family was poor and relying on the ER for medical care.)

      Jessa's comments make me wonder if there is some pride involved, that a woman suffering in labor and not opting for pain relief somehow makes them a better mother (and not just because she spared her baby the risks of medication). Now i'll be pilloried by home birth advocates, but there's a big difference between a mere preference for home birth and an insistence on it even in a high risk situation like Joy's, that I just don't get. At the very least, the Duggars should be able to afford to hire more competent midwives.

      Delete
  18. I still cringe at the footage of poor Joy!!! Next time, use an MD. I hope she doesn’t follow Jill & try again at home!! On a different subject, that was one huge Home Jim Bob bought. I’d like to see the completed house in the future. Jessa narrates more, I think, because she is more polished and comfortable, speaking.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I know many people who have had successfull home vbacs, but I do hope that for Joy’s next baby they’ll go to a hospital or at least a birthing center and if not goes well she could try for a home vbac the next time.

      Delete
    2. It is illegal in Arkansas for a licensed midwife to attempt a vbac homebirth. The mother doesn't face legal consequences, but the midwife risks losing their license if they do attempt to deliver a baby via home vbac. Joy is now a high risk patient.

      Delete
  19. Haha, perfect video for labor day...

    ReplyDelete
  20. Why is JOhana there? This is no place for a girl her age. Not appropriate.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Preparing for her future in a few years.

      Delete
    2. Why shouldn't she have been there? She's well aware of how babies are born and I see no reason to exclude her.

      Delete
    3. It's not a matter of Johanna knowing how babies are born. It's a traumatic thing for a younger sibling to see their sibling in pain, much less protracted laboring with a 10 Lb. breech baby. It's a question of emotionally traumatizing a young girl in the name of "exposing her to the birthing experience" or expecting her to help/serve her older sister. Joy had numerous older sisters and a mother close enough to fulfill that need. Johannah should have been allowed to grow up a little more before being thrust into that role. JimBob and Michelle have been sending their young daughters into labor situations before they're emotionally ready to handle it. Can we all say Joy's remarks during pregnancy about how scared she was of labor? Jinger also commented prior to marriage about how afraid she was of labor. Jill and Jessa's traumatic birth adventures aren't helping their younger siblings.

      Delete
  21. My C-section was a piece of cake. I don't think they're always as scary as some make them out to be. I had an easy recovery, too. I give God the glory -- He is able!!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good for you, my mom almost died during her csection, so for some people they’re terrifying.

      Delete
    2. My son's teacher died of a blood clot after hers. Why would God take a young mother of a newborn like that?

      Delete
    3. Any sort of delivery can be dangerous, hence why proper care should be given to Mom before, during, and after delivery. We've got a real problem with maternal death rates in this country. I had a scheduled c-section for my frank breech baby and luckily it and the recovery were amazing. (I like to think it was extra fabulous because all the nurses and doctors in the OR were women...so of course they got the job done right. :)

      Delete

Thanks for leaving your comments! We answer as many of your questions as we can, but due to the number of comments we receive daily, we are unable to answer every one. Our aim is to post all points of view, but we do not post anything that is profane, insulting, derogatory, or in poor taste.